Kickstarter King of war 2.0

[manrogue]

From the latest blog

http://manticblog.com/2014/11/03/big-bat...ick-rules/

Big Battles, Great Background, Quick Rules


It’s time for war!

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on Friday’s blog post. Moving Deadzone back to early next year seems to be the popular choice and there were some great recommendations for new factions. We’ll have some chats here at the bunker and work up some ideas and drawings.

We also have confirmation that DBX is on the sea and on the way to us. I flew in a copy of the box and a couple of the minis to take with me to Crisis this weekend. It is all looking spot on, particularly the plastics. I will have a ‘DreadBall – the future of the sports game of the future’ (what a mouthful!) blog post in a couple of weeks, but those of you that backed this will have some lovely toys with you in a few weeks’ time!

DBX Scenery

The above is one half of the scenery you’ll get in DreadBall Xtreme.

As I said last time, pushing Deadzone back has implications for Kings of War – there are already a couple of the campaign books (with army lists and rules in them) that are out of print and this is causing concern (rightly so). These have been OOP for a while. I have a number of European (and South American!) distributors all very keen on translating Kings of War into their own language. I don’t really want them to translate the old version, only to see it superseded within a few months – and I am not sure you’d be ok with the translations being the new version and you still being over a year away from print!

We are now running short of the hardback rulebook and the two-player set as well. If the Kickstarter goes after Deadzone it will not come in before the end of 2015 and I think that’s just too late.

Alessio and a team of KoW fanatics have been working for the last 3 months on updating the rules. By combining a refreshed rule set with a far more complete background and all the army lists – updated with new units and rebalanced – then putting all of it in one book and I think and we have the foundations of a fantastic 2nd edition.

Kings-of-War-Orcs-Goblins-Vs-Twilight-Kin-Abyssal-Dwarfs

Big Armies, Big Battles

I know Kickstarters have the potential to become a burden, and I am aware of this.

So did I consider just pre-releasing the 2nd Edition of KoW? Yes, I thought long and hard about it. But I think our fans have come to expect the amazing. Piles of plastics at great prices and any extra cash we generate being spent on new models to support their game, and more cool expansion books and background. If I put it up for pre-release we both lose the urgency that makes us get on and get things made and a deadline that sees it released soon.

I think it also undervalues just how much Kickstarter brings to the party. Over ½ the money we raise in any campaign now comes from people who have never backed a Mantic kickstarter before. I think there are a growing number of gamers in the world who are looking for a reasonably priced, well-made, fantasy Tabletop war game. We have that in KoW, but from the discussions I’ve had everyone who plays it thinks the rulebook needs both a freshen up, and for everything to be in one place. I think it also needs some publicity – a well-run campaign that raises its modest funding goal and goes past it, and allows us to get a new edition out in 2015 in 4 languages will do that.

Undead-Artwork-Army-of-Mhorgoth-large

That said, I am aware it is coming up to the time of year when our hobby money goes elsewhere, and while the argument for a Kickstarter is overwhelming, that doesn’t help the wallet!

We’ll have a low buy in pledge. It will get you a hard cover book, with rules, lots of background about the world and the armies and updated army lists. This would be a limited edition print. You also get the battle book – a soft cover book (it will come with just the army lists and rules) for taking with you to games nights and tournaments. If you just want the book, or to pay after Christmas just drop in a dollar and pick up what you want in the survey. Finally I would open a pledge for new players that gives them the rules pledge and an army to get going with it would also be a handy way for existing players the opportunity to start a new army, (or an Abyssal one )

The funding goal would be relatively low for just the book and we would only open the kickstarter for a couple of weeks, but we’d leave the pledge manager open well into the new year so everyone has as long as they need to get themselves sorted – and we’d use that time to keep the total going up and use the funds for tooling new miniatures if we overshoot the goal.

Dwarf-One-Player-Battle-Set

This means you get the new 2nd Edition Hardback Kings of War rulebook printed and into your hands mid-2015. Mantic will have 3 months focusing on this game, with the new rules, ahead of the release of Dungeon Saga too. And as always any funds we raise goes directly in to making the Kings of War universe better, through more background and new miniatures. The translated versions will be using the same rules as the English version, allowing international tournaments and cross border play from the outset. It also cleans up the printed range and puts everything in one place!

And IF you want it, and by that I mean if you run around with your arms above your head yelling ‘more, I want more’ and we sprint past the funding level we need for the book and some cool extra bits then I will use the extra funds to fill in some of the gaps in the existing armies and to tool the Abyssal army for Kings of War (which we’ve already sculpted most of). We would still keep the pledge manager open so you could add them on anytime too.

We intend to start the campaign next week and end it right at the start of December – as you can see it is a mini-kick in every sense of the word!

[Stuart]

Kickstarter goes live tomorrow (14th) at 14:30 GMT.

[Simian]

Bloody mantic and their Kickstarters. Just release the games!

[Gareth]

Bloody mantic and their Kickstarters. Just release the games!

I understand that view point, and to a degree I agree. But I have also heard Mantic talk about the concept behind their constant Kickstarter.

The best example of this is their 40k equivalent game Warpath. There is a big standard version which has a very limited range of miniatures. In that universe though Dreadball exists, which via its Kickstarter put into place the funding for a large amount of the concept art, for the universe. Then came Deadzone, which via its funding allowed them to cast up a tool, a larger number of moulds meaning that Warpath now has a greater range of miniatures available. They have mentioned that there will probably be another Warpath universe Kickstarter, the intention being to get more moulds produced, this being more likely to feature vehicle. Then finally Warpath gets its Kickstarter, and this time a massive amount of work has been payed for, meaning a much larger game is possible.

Yes Mantic have perhaps asked for enough funds in advance, and probably it seems like they have a constant begging bowl, passed about. But for most companies, who rely on finding external tooling, sometimes it is the only way. I will say for Mantic, the nature of their kickstarters, does mess them up, because it does kill off secondary purchases. After all why buy more models for rrp, when they game me everything at 25% retail in the Kickstarter?

[Simian]

oh i understand it, i got their email justifying it to me, but i dont agree with it. It kills secondary sales, its constant with them (which is a big part of the issue), they've still not finished sending out the Deadzone models FFS!

[Gareth]

So your waiting on Deadzone. What are you expecting them to do in the mean time? Sit about not doing anything, or progress their company?

[Simian]

course not. but how about finish one KS before starting another? how about not treating KS as a preorder website?

[Gareth]

Here is a tale of two companies. One called Mantic and one called Wyrd.

Mantic proposed to release a game, called Kings of War. So they approached the community and asked "here is our vision, who will fund us?" and the community replied we will. They then proposed to release a game called Dreadball, so again they asked the community and asked "here is our vision, who will fund us?" But the community replied "wait a minute, we are still waiting on our Kings of War products, whats going on?" So Mantic replied "thank you for funding our Kings of War project. You will notice that at the moment, we have not missed any of our projected shipping dates on Kings of War. We have paid our concept artists to produce concept art, and they are currently sat about doing nothing. We have paid our rules designers to write rules, and they have honed thme down to a degree we are happy with, but now they are sat about doing nothing.We have paid our sculpters to do our sculpts, which they have but they are currently sat about doing nothing. We are waiting for our miniature producers to produce the miniatures for us, but whilst we wait, we would like to start a new project, utilising the resources we currently have available." So the community agreed this was a wise decission and funded Dreadball. Then Mantic said "Hey community we have an idea for a game, called Deadzone, who wants to help fund it?" And the community said "wait a cotton picking minute, I'm waiting on Dreadball stuff to arrive." So Mantic sat down and explained all of the above again, and the community decided actually Mantic were doing things correctly, and funded Deadzone. In all the time Mantic have asked for Kickstarter funding, they have never massivekly missed their shipping tagets.

Then there was a company called Wyrd. Wyrd had a game, called Malifaux, and it was popular. But Wyrd wanted to expand their company and said to the community, "we want an Evil Baby Orphanage." So the community said what a great idea, and it funded EBO, and the community recieved their products earlier than expected. Wyrd then said, "we want a Malifaux roleplay game. However we cannot fund this without your support," and the community said yes.And everything was going well, then after six months Wyrd diverted some of the staff that the Kickstarter had funded for Through the Breach, towards developing M2E. And then Through th Breach missed its completion target by twelve months, because Wyrd decided to divert its funding elsewhere.

Now I have no real love for Mantic, I have played one of their games once (a demo of Dwarf Kings Hold, with Ronnie at TWG.) I think their models look garbage, and whiklst I want to play Kings of War, I want to do so, when I get around to painting their models. Which look garbage, so they shift to the back of the queue. Wyrd on the otherhand, I am technically employed by, I love their Malifaux universe to pieces, EBO is one of my favourite games, and despite a v1 preference, I am really lookign forward to playting more M2E. But I know which one of the two game companies acted out of hand, and I know which of the two I trust to deliver products on time.

[Gareth]

Ben you replied whilst I was typing my long winded tale.

I do agree Kickstarter was never intended to be a pre-order store, but Mantic are not the only ones who have done so. Not just in the minatures community but in other genres also.

Is it right? Definately not.

Do Kickstarter mind? Definately not.

Do you as the consumer are you forced spend any money via Kickstarter? Definately not.

Do you as a consumer who has spent money with a company thats used Kickstarter as a pre-order service, have any justifiable right to complain about said company using Kickstarter as a pre-order service? Hint answer has been given to you three times prior. At least in my opinion

If you dont like it, dont fund it. With or without this Kickstarter your Deadzone stuff will arrive at the same time.

[Simian]

Im not sure what your point is, you seem to be implying i dont have any right to complain about something i dislike? As for me losing that right because i've used the company, i have no real issue when its a new game system, ie Deadzone, Dreadball (the first time), but its the repeat KS for things like Zombiecide or the fact mantic have already announced more dreadball, and more deadzone that the issue for me comes in, those are the types of KS that need to stop being a Preorder service. original game systems are fine.

also, i dont have a problem with delays, delays happen, but when they're saying that they're turning over their production to the new KS and ignoring queries about missing KS stuff and not finishing one before moving on it becomes an issue.

i also agree the Mantic models are awful. restic is an awful material, i wont be getting anything from Mantic again.